Curse

fatboyslimerr · May 31, 2006, 12:05 PM // 12:05

I think y'all missing the point. Blackout and diversion are both great tatical skills (as is languor kinda). Oppounisitic useage of both can foil an enemies tactic (to spike or whatever). In a straight comparison (which is stupid, they are two very different skills) neither is 'better'. Eaimirth mentioned earlier that you give a monk a choice when they have diversion cast on them, so they can use a skill/spell they are least likely to need straight away in order for them instantly to become functional again, or wait out the 6 second duration without any negative impact. On the other hand, blackout don't give them no luxuries. They're screwed, they can't do swat for 7 seconds, which is a perfect amount of time to coordinate and execute a spike or to kill flag runner etc etc.

I would rarely use diversion except against spikers (not on monks) but blackout is a must against boon prots, who's spells are so difficult to interrupt (doesn't stop me though)

. Imo blackout just has more applications of useage than diversion, although diversion is good, its just not as good as blackout for some particular scenarios (e.g. against monks).

Langour, sure they made it better, but I just don't think its worth the elite slot. So what, lessen a monks energy by 10. They'll probably never be near full energy anyway, always around the 20-30 mark as they spam skills and use energy management. Imo langour is just out shadowed by soo many better elites (renewal ftw !!!).

I think the blackout vs diversion arguement could go on for a long time with everyone adding their part, although after awhile patterns of similar builds using each skill in similar scenarios will appear. Fine if you've got a build where diversion works better than blackout, thats great and vice versa. In Gvg teams that use 1 mesmer, you often seen a diversion mesmer and he works very well but only really for support against non monks e.g people who are less likely to be expecting diversion e.g. warriors. For straight up shutdown, blackout is by far more effective.

Langour will stay unlocked for me till Jupiter has a McDonald's on it

remmeh · May 31, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

why not use both? double the fun. and throw in some shame.

Kriel Drache · May 31, 2006, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Actually, there is one thing I've found that Diversion is VERY good for: taking down Touch Rangers who use Vampiric Touch and Vampiric Bite to no end. They used to give me so much trouble until I threw in Diversion.

Siren · May 31, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

Langour, sure they made it better, but I just don't think its worth the elite slot. So what, lessen a monks energy by 10. They'll probably never be near full energy anyway, always around the 20-30 mark as they spam skills and use energy management.

I think you're kind of missing the point here. The Exhaustion's going to stack. A Monk usually being around the 20-30E mark doesn't matter. You're not lessening a Monk's energy by only 10; you're lessening it by 10xY, where Y is the amount of times they're going to be casting within that 7-second timeframe.

And what's going to be so terrifying about Arcane Languor to most Monks and Mesmers is that they can't remove it themselves. They're going to depend on another character on their team for that particular hex removal.

A Monk could CoP it off, okay, but what happens when the opposing Mesmer has slapped Diversion on them, and had Arcane Echoed the first Arcane Languor? CoP is disabled for easily 40 seconds, another Arcane Languor was just re-applied, and that Monk is basically back to where he started.

Even at 4 seconds, with a "simulated" game environment of minimal hex removal, Arcane Languor was able to put one of my guildies' BoonProt characters from 50E to a barely useable 5E within four casts. She was playing the typical BoonProt, too.

Now think about those 4 seconds and how easy it was to castrate a character that needed to cast as much and as quickly as possible...and think about what 7 seconds is going to do (because I do not anticipate many people going high enough to get 8 seconds).

Arcane Languor, when used correctly, is entirely worth the Elite slot. You want e-denial? Who needs to drain their energy when you can just force them to Exhaust themselves?

bushe · May 31, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

I think that languor is decent in its current form in that if it were not elite I would deffinately be trying to fit it into builds. As an elite it still lacks some punch in that it doesn't really do all that much more than black out and diversion. It is nice to have another option though and if you catch them casting aegis or heal party it can really help out as they will take one exhaustion and then still have it on for 7-8 seconds.

The diversion vs blackout debate is really a debate of what is your mesmer doing. blackout is a more attacking skill, attacking a monks ability to cast or attacking a warriors energy. whereas diversion is a long term defense, defending against a monk casting RoF 30 times in a minute or heal party spamming. For a single cast blackout is more effective obviously. BUT you can't chain cast blackout on opposing monks because you are a mesmer and a frontline mesmer is a dead mesmer, where as diversion I can stay at the back and spread the pain arround. Personally I ussually run both as they are really good and can actually complement each other nicely.

fatboyslimerr · May 31, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

But who says they're gonna cast through Langour in the first place. Its the same as diversion, if not a little better. They'll see they're hexed with it (CoP won't be diversioned because they're not stupid) so they'll CoP, at minimal energy loss to them, removing langour before it does damage. If monk doesn't cast through langour, it does nothing. They will learn to treat it like diversion, thus its a waste of an elite slot and you might as well just take diversion.

In coordinated groups, hexes like diversion, shame and langour should be removed by team mates in seconds, not even shutting them down for the duration of the hex. If you wack diversion or langour or even both of them together (or one after the other) on a decent boon prot, he'll just smile and wait for 6-8 seconds or calculate the risk and CoP or whatever and sacrifice a skill to become useful again. Its just not that good imo. If we're talking about shutting down with langour/diversion, I just think blackout does the job better. If you want true shutdown, deny them energy, drain their enchantments and interrupt their E-management. Sure they'll be able to spam RoF but with only 3 energy regen, they can't keep it up for long.

Differences of opinion are usually great, and I'm just arguing that I think langour is a waste of an elite, and your better taking diversion if you wanna take anything, even better take blackout as it is a more flexable skill, with Power Block as your Elite

Siren · May 31, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Okay, now going on what you just said about coordinated groups, how many characters bring hex removal in coordinated GvG? I've counted three total, and even then, you'll maybe find one or two at most on each character. Usually I expect those characters to either be Mesmers or Monks. And Mesmers and Monks are the characters that should be targeted with an Arcane Languor build.

Spamming RoF. hehe. That's the idea, mate. Work with your team for cover hexes, make sure that Monk will be Exhausting themselves with every RoF. Yeah, they've got 3 pips of e-regen. Who cares about that when they only have 5 useable energy? When the entirety of their energy bar is a gray block? It can happen. And against a BoonProt or whatever, it's entirely possible, especially when the rest of your team is going to be pressuring other key enemies.

We've seen Dual Surge, right? Take that and think about Dual Languor instead. Spotting a team's hex removal isn't terribly difficult. What happens after a Dual Languor picks up on hex removal? One of them is going to rip into the hex removal (and combine that with a Warrior or Assassin pressure and that Monk is going down real fast), and the other Dual Languor is going to take down the primary target (and I'd imagine also with a Warrior or Assassin pressure).

There you're looking at characters being unable to cast the entire time. They either cast and Exhaust themselves, or they cast through Diversion, or they don't cast at all, period. No matter what, they're not going to be casting--and the Exhaustion can (rather, does) hurt a lot.

Yeah, I might be completely wrong here, and we might never see Dual Languor being used in place of Dual Surge, but then again, with a regular duration of 7 seconds...we should start expecting Dual Languor. And then things are going to get really interesting once people realize what I've known for a while now.

Regarding Blackout vs Diversion, though I don't really care all that much...I don't think Blackout can touch the shutdown you can find with Diversion (and will find with Arcane Languor). Like others have said, Blackout is more a spike-assist. It's a quick hit. Diversion, on the other hand, can function like an extended cocaine high. In the long run, Diversion has much more versatility. I mean, hell, it can disable a skill for almost an entire minute.

pah01 · May 31, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

This is for the person who thinks that blackout isnt that good.

Blackout is probably one of the most powerful skills that isnt elite in the game. This skill is so good that I might still bring it if they made it elite. This skill used properly can really make the job of killing monks that much easier. Its as pwerful as gale in a different way.

Diversion is the only hex that can cause a booner real trouble - ie it will divert cop.

Sam

BrutusV · May 31, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic Memory

Wow...

Whats my new favorite elite? O yea!!! Arcane Echo + Arcane Languor FTW!!!

I hope it stays like this, and that the other casters wont complain about it

Thank you for spamming your heals, gg Coventina the Matron!

Pi_Numurian · May 31, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

nice echo nuke combo

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 31, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

IMO:
But, because Diversion is spammable, this choice becomes more and more restricted over time.

Uhh blackout and diversion have the same recharge ='(
In fact due to its shorter activation time and longer duration...BO can disable a caster more effectively than diversion 7 out of 11 second instead of 6 out of 12.
In terms of spikes diversion will not stop the first one; it will trigger and stop remaining spike heals from that monk for 1 minute after the first one (assuming another skill isn't used as fodder and diversion sac'd but we can ignore this for the sake of the arguement). However blackout will stop spike heals from that monk for 7 seconds and then the spiked player is disabled for however long it takes him to get a res. This will happen OR the monk under diversion can let the said player die; which is what the diversion'er should be hoping for to begin with.

Arcane Langour only affects spells as well; would be nice if it affected skills. (SUCK IT GALE WARRIORS, SUCK IT TO THE GRAVE!) or are they shock warriors now? Ohh no matter.

fatboyslimerr · May 31, 2006, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Interesting idea Siren but dual langour and all that other stuff you said is too focuses on one kind of shutdown. You would weaken yourself to other aspects of the same. Even if you cover langour or diversion for that matter, they can wait out the duration and then become useful again which may still save the spike victim. Plus with things like spell shield and spell breaker, both of these are useless. Blackout on the other hand isn't a spell its a skill, so when they think they are safe from mesmers.. blackout them then interrupt spell shield/spell breaker on the re cast.

I would also consider blackout if it was an elite (maybe if it had longer duration and shorter disable to you) and I like blackout so much that I spent months trying to make a blackout warrior. Realised it sucked but it was lots of fun still. Its true in a shutdown build you'll probably use both diversion and blackout but I'm sorry langour will not replace power block as the shutdownists elite. Firstly because langour can be avoided by just not casting in its duration (please don't argue 'in certain circumstances blah blah blah, because I'm saying generally, and most of the time it'll be useless) it'll never match the awesomeness of blackout. Secondly it requires points in fast casting which I don't usually have about 10 or 11 where as I have 15-16 domination to use with power block as well as to complement the rest of my domination/shutdown skills.

This could go on for awhile, so...
Summarising imo
* langour sucks in most situations
* diversion sucks in most situations (although less than langour)
* blackout has way more flexibility and its not elite and it doesn't have a long casting time and its not a spell and so can't be blocked by shield or breaker.

But if someone wants to think of some weird and wonderful situation when diversion and langour 'may' possibly be slightly useful on the rare occurance of a total eclipse then sure go for it, I'll just be looking the other way

Siren · May 31, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

Interesting idea Siren but dual langour and all that other stuff you said is too focuses on one kind of shutdown. You would weaken yourself to other aspects of the same. Even if you cover langour or diversion for that matter, they can wait out the duration and then become useful again which may still save the spike victim. Plus with things like spell shield and spell breaker, both of these are useless. Blackout on the other hand isn't a spell its a skill, so when they think they are safe from mesmers.. blackout them then interrupt spell shield/spell breaker on the re cast.

You've just listed some of the major flaws and weaknesses of the Dual Surgers. ~_^

And look at what we've seen here. Surge e-denial is going to be phasing out. Various Necro Curses skills recently were buffed up, and they function very nicely as e-denial (Well of Weariness on Primary Mes). And now we're getting this buff for Arcane Languor. e-denial is going to be changing dramatically.

With proper build design (and most importantly, strategic build design), a Dual Languor set-up will outperform most anything when it comes to CasterHate, I think. I've already got a build in mind that can rock the house when it comes to a Dual Languor tag-team.

Mystic Memory · May 31, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

I dont see why so many people think diversion sucks or is very situational. When Im playing anything, and someone puts diversion on me, I panic. Diversion is either long range blackout (if they dont cast), or 57 second shutdown of 1 skill. Not too shabby in my book. It also doesnt blackout yourself, thus keeping you free to use distortion or something.

dgb · Jun 01, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

- Some think that Diversion gives a choice. In the heat of the battle, when you are not sure that you can wait 6 seconds (if you're a Monk, for instance), you don't ACTUALLY have a choice : you can only cast through. So, the only choice you have, is to choose the skill to be diverted (among your ready-to-cast skills...). But, because Diversion is spammable, this choice becomes more and more restricted over time.

Or you could just remove it.

9th Requiem · Jun 01, 2006, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Or you could just remove it.

Yes, but then your hex removal gets Diverted.

Personally, I like Blackout. The blackout of your skills too put me off entirely, until I realized that mesmers are good at preparing targets. Hit a hex (or a few), hit BO, then watch your target flounder. The touch range is a problem, but if you can bear to switch secondary, there's always shadow step.

But I prefer this. Although elite, and although it doesn't stop spells, it's effects are much longer lasting. Drop this on a monk, then slow spike (contradiction? Perhaps. But it's important that the hexed monk is paniced enough to try to save his teammate, but slow enough to let him cast) the other monk (or another team member), and watch as the hexed monk makes themself useless trying to save an ally. Chances are both will be too busy to remove the hex (especially if covered correctly), whilst the mischief causable is great. Even after you drop the target, the origional monk has no energy to save himself. Furthermore, although it takes 2 elite slots to pull off, combined with Equinox, you can disable a monk in half the number of casts.

Diversion is great if spammed on certain builds, such as a boon prot monk, or anything with "spammer" in it's title. On other builds, the skill diverted could be very minor, or have a huge recharge anyway.

If you're going for shutdown, I would go Arcane Languor. It does it's job very well, in a lasting mannor, and without detriment to you. true it is a hex. But as a mesmer, you have ways of dealing with hex removal, whether it be covers, interupts, or whatever other fiendish method you can think up.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 01, 2006, 08:54 AM // 08:54

We're getting too much into people's playing styles. There's no right or wrong way to play mesmer, so by arguing your heart away, its not proving whether diversion/blackout or langour are good or bad. Dual Langour could work in specific circumstances but it would require at least 3 skill slots to effectively use it, langour, cover (diversion or something) and WW (possibly ??)

CoP is an ever daunting prospect and should be considered during all competitive build creation. For example, enemy boon prot becomes hexed with both langour and diversion, but instead of asking his/her team to remove it, he asks them to enchant him with prot spirit etc etc, CoP and your weee combo is gone, no harm done. If you stack diversion and langour and force them to use CoP, this could in theory make it possible for more effective use of langour after CoP is disabled, if its covered well (think of expel hexes).

E-denial is changing but its not so much the skills that makes a build (although they probably help

but the player. I like power leaking, and as long as your good at interrupting, power leaking is the e-denial skill of choice. Others might be good at catching a monk with diversion when they don't expect it or force them to cast a spell using WW or something. Others might enjoy getting a bit closer and coordinating with their team to blackout a monk just before a spike. Lots of circumstances, lots of builds, lots of people = hundreds of combinations. I'm starting to think langour is useable but I just think there are better elites for a e-denial mes to use.

dgb · Jun 01, 2006, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Requiem

Yes, but then your hex removal gets Diverted.

Only if you are dumb. You either take it off with inspired hex, or you get someone else to remove it. In any coordinated team hex removal will not all be located on one character.

Siren, the reason why dual surge was so powerful was that it did a lot of incidental damage as well. Big AoE damage, AoE energy denial resulted in placing a lot of pressure on the monks to heal while low on energy as well as blunting the offence of the rest of the opponents team. Dual Languour is monk shutdown only, it has none of the incidental effects of dual surge which is why I suspect it will not become standard like surgers did.

Themis · Jun 01, 2006, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Come on now... no-one actually removes 6sec hexes !!! Simply because in the mid-battle, hex removal is prioritized differently, so by the time they're being removed (by another player, WHEN and IF he has the time to do it), 3 to 4 seconds have already passed

So players don't bother asking for removal, they choose the simple (and best imo) solution : pick a spell and cast through.

Evilsod · Jun 01, 2006, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Only if you are dumb. You either take it off with inspired hex, or you get someone else to remove it. In any coordinated team hex removal will not all be located on one character.

Siren, the reason why dual surge was so powerful was that it did a lot of incidental damage as well. Big AoE damage, AoE energy denial resulted in placing a lot of pressure on the monks to heal while low on energy as well as blunting the offence of the rest of the opponents team. Dual Languour is monk shutdown only, it has none of the incidental effects of dual surge which is why I suspect it will not become standard like surgers did.

Good point, while E-surge did AoE damage to add pressure it could be turned on other classes too. You can hardly use Arcane Languor on a Martyr Trapper can you, but you can E-surge him. If anything theres more chance of 1 Surger 1 Langourer. But i can't see people totally forgetting about Migraine either.